MOO session log for Computers and Writing 2000 Online session

Collaboration, Social Construction and the Role of the Spectator-Participant

Presented by Lennie Irvin, San Antonio College
March 16, 2000, 4:00 p.m. EST
In the Collaboration Theater on the MOO Connections


[log started Thu Mar 16 16:10:16 2000 EST]
Participants: cin, Kafkaz, Bradley, Lennie, Tery, James, John's_Fylgja (guest), Katie, nickc, John, RobertR, Cath, and Pokemon
cin turns Lennie's recorder on.
John's_Fylgja (guest) [to Lennie]: Go for it.
nickc is tired after that long walk
cin grins at nick
Lennie says, "I have about six slides, so please bare with me. "
Kafkaz is ready to participate/observe
cin sits down and peers intently at the screen

Lennie shows the slide "slide1" on the LCD.

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Welcome to the 1st MOO Session of the CW2K Online Conference

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cin says, "yay!"
John's_Fylgja (guest) says, "WooHoo!"
nickc has disconnected.
Bradley smiles at Lennie.

Lennie shows the slide "slide2" on the LCD.

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Session Topic: Collaboration, Social Construction, and the Spectator-Participant

At this time, let's open the session by sharing who we are and where we are from. Please, type in your name, institution, and city.

Once we have introduced ourselves, I will present a brief slide show of four slides on the topic, and then we'll start conversing.

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Bradley Dilger, University of Florida, Gainesville
Kafkaz is Kathy Fitch, College of DuPage
John's_Fylgja (guest) is John Walter's alter-ego, Saint Louis University
James is James Inman, Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina
Tery says, "Tery Griffin, NYU, New York"
nickc has connected.
Lennie says, "I am Lennie Irvin from San Antonio College in balmy San Antonio Texas."
cin is Cindy Wambeam, New Mexico State University (soon to be "Washington State University")
Katie says, "Katie Braun, Ohio State, Columbus"
Kafkaz envies balmy
nickc is Nick Carbone, Colostate.edu
Lennie says, "Great. Thanks."

Lennie shows the slide "slide3" on the LCD.

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The Role of the Spectator-Participant in Computer Learning Environments

My catalyst into this notion we will be exploring today came from a line I read in an essay by James Britton called 'Spectator Role and the Beginnings of Writing': 'as participants we APPLY our value systems, but as spectators we GENERATE and REFINE the system itself.'

Weren't our computer 'classrooms' (whether virtual or real) filled with spectators and participants? Didn't our students when they engaged in sharing and responding to texts inhabit a dual-role of spectators and participants? How do these roles shape and affect the learning that occurs?

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Lennie shows the slide "slide4" on the LCD.

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An Analogy to Describe the Spectator-Participant

One analogy I've used to describe these roles is that of the theater and a group of student actors involved in improvisational acting. All the students in the troupe are spectators because they watch the antics of their peers on stage; all the students are participants as well because each one will have his or her turn in front of the others.

The fact that each student knows they will 'participate' by acting on stage affects their experience as spectators. Likewise, the fact that each student knows that they have an audience affects their role as participant.

This analogy describes what students are doing when they engage in sharing and responding to texts via computers (Computer-mediated-communication).

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James reads faster
cin likes this analogy (and thinks this room reflects that analogy)
Kafkaz nodding
James ooos, likes the analogy too
Lennie nods
Kafkaz likes "antics"
cin grins at kafkaz
John's_Fylgja (guest) says, "Lennie was keen on describing this room the way it is. He quickly learned MOO building to do it."

Lennie shows the slide "slide5" on the LCD.

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The Interface

The interface is one other important factor in this description of students' 'positionality' as they engage in computer-mediated-communication. We can't ignore that all of this spectating and participating is occurring through the computer screen-virtual, disembodied, silent. In a way, students perform their participation alone with no witnesses until they hit the 'send' button. Similarly, the spectator-reader views the performance of others in isolation. Thus, the network and the interface create a paradox: the network facilitates a high level of social exchange, yet this exchange is enacted in isolation-each student is alone connected to the group.

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cin needs to reread this one -- there's a lot in this.
Kafkaz says, "All alone together"
cin nods, interesting paradox
James is really interested in the idea of 'performing' alone
nickc thinks last slide on interface is important because interface is what sets the stage and seating; it determines what you can see, how you see it, and how you can act
Lennie says, "Aren't we all connected in this discussion really "alone" with our computer, yet this MOO environment allows for quite a bit of performance."
cin says, "is it performance, or rehearsal? (or are they the same thing?)"
nickc says, "for an example of that, see SDF's "abstractions on MOO talk piece at http://www.december.co m/cmc/mag/1995/may/last.html"
James nods to nickc
cin grins at nickc, the best-read onliner I know
Bradley nods, "My dissertation will have a lot to do with the interface..."
Bradley hopes to figure out 'interface' a bit better.
Lennie says, "The analogy goes only so far. I've never been fond of equating an act of writing to a performance."

Lennie shows the slide "slide6" on the LCD.

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Discussion Question:

So how does learning happen through computer-mediated-communication
As students share text and respond to text, where when how why do they learn?

As student send text AT each other and read text sent AT them,
As students send text TO each other and read text sent TO them,
As students engage in dialogue BETWEEN each other-how and when does learning 'happen'? How might the insight into the students' positionality as spectator-participants help us understand the dynamics of learning in this environment?

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cin tried to take a course, do some research, in the field of "human computer interaction" -- but it was disappointing to me. Very psych-meets-business in orientation.
Tery says, "These are all excellent questions!"
James nods to cin, must have had a similar reading list for the version he took
John's_Fylgja (guest) says, "Lennie has an essay on this at http://www.accd.e du/sac/english/lirvin/Purdue/Intro.htm"
Kafkaz says, "'AT' sounds both confrontational, in the sending, and passive/unwilling in the getting."
[ 4:20 pm ]
Lennie says, "The correct address is this:http://www.accd.ed u/sac/english/lirvin/Purdue/Welc.htm"
cin adds a question to the fray -- this is all influenced (imposed upon?) by the face-to-face interaction also. When you're in a computer classroom, there are moments when people pop up to look at each other...or talk or laugh...or wink.
John arrives from Crump's Corner.
John's_Fylgja (guest) leaves the theater for a local pub.
James nods to Kafkaz------and TO implies an awareness of audience----it'd be interesting to think if that audience is grounded in virtual identity, somehow embodied online after all, or if it's a lone student across from the target interface
Kafkaz nods to cin--that hybrid element, both online and physically together, isn't discussed enough, I think
cin thinks that the multi-threaded dynamics of the computer-mediated-communication sort of magnify the way that interactions occur -- it's fast, it's furious, it's often unfamiliar...
Lennie [to Kafkaz]: By AT I mean when we send text at the whole group. In a sense as we are doing now. When I have students post their essays to a mail conference in Daedalus, they send the text AT the whole group. I don't think it is in essence confrontational.
nickc [to Lennie]: I wonder if Kafkaz wonders about AT because as specticipant what she does when posting is not an "AT" feeling to her.
Kafkaz [to James]: yes, much discussion of audience, but the writing in isolation makes the "to" always a construct of our own making. "I'm writing to my audience, my blank wall, myself, my idealized self, my ideal(ized) readers.
cin nods to lennie, although it *can* be confrontational. I wonder how we tell the difference between confrontation and collaboration?
Kafkaz nods to Nick
Kafkaz says, "Sounds like tossing bombs"
Kafkaz says, "Which I do sometimes, but usually only on purpose."
nickc nods Kafkaz
cin ooohs, I like that -- "specicipant"
cin mispells -- "specticipant"

Lennie shows the slide "slideX" on the LCD.

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I should mention that we will be logging the session and that logs can sent via email to anyone who wants one if they type <ask John's Recorder for text>.
Participants need permission to use the logs for research or to citation in a paper (Connections MOO policy). Tuesday Cafe has a good disclaimer:

We make logs available to allow those interested in topics but unable to attend discussion to read them.
Anyone wishing to make any other use of these logs, e.g., for research, citation in a paper or article, etc., must obtain the permission of the participants.
our motto: If you can't find 'em, don't cite 'em.

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James nods to Kafkaz----right: addressed/invoked
John says, "Atually, due to last minute changes, you request the text from Lennie's recorder."
Kafkaz [to James]: that's it, exactly--we create audience.
cin notes that the logs will also be available on the CW2Konline website
John says, "type <ask Lennie's recorder for text>"
James nods to cin
nickc says, "I'm guessing that because i feel the same way. I see this discusssion as a scroll, it literally rolls up the page, and when I want to add to it, I have a window that's still where I can write. I watch the scroll as I write, and add when I find something I can respond to or join with"
cin nods to nickc, and with other interfaces (like straight telnet, for example) you don't get that two-window feeling -- the text interupts what you're typing
Kafkaz shudders telnet
Kafkaz says, "It's writus interruptus"
cin thinks that part of why some people get angry and frustrated when they first MOO is that feeling of constantly being interupted
cin says, "which brings us back to that concept of writing AT, and performance, and...well, individual/group writing"
John agrees with cin.
RobertR arrives from Crump's Corner.
Lennie says, "I find that students engaged as "speticipants" find that MULTIPLICITY (the many different view points from others) is one of the biggest things that leads to learning."
Kafkaz [to cin]: hmm--but this never feels that way to me.
James waves to RobertR
Lennie waves to RobertR
John waves to RobertR
Kafkaz says, "How do we get from at and to to with?"
Kafkaz says, "Or maybe even "alongside" like parallel play"
cin wonders how synchronous (MOOs, chat spaces) vs. asynchronous (e-ists, newsgroups) affects these issues
Bradley nods to Lennie.
Bradley says, "One of the places I think Bruffee's work needs updating is in that area..."

RobertR shows the slide "slide1" on the LCD.

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Welcome to the 1st MOO Session of the CW2K Online Conference

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cin [to RobertR]: you can see the slides you missed by typing <peek 1 on lcd> <peek 2 on lcd> -- that way we don't all see them :>
John [to RobertR]: Sorry, I meant <peek slide1 on LCD>
John says, "My fault."
cin grins
James likes the notion of multiplicity as a way of thinking about the sorts of difficult multiple media questions cin raises
cin [to James]: multiplicity?
Kafkaz [to cin]: asynchronous always feels more essayish to me, more deliberative, whereas synchronous makes it brainstorming, group play, fast and (sometimes) furious(er)
James nods to cin-------Lennie's term from above about multiple viewpoints from others------with our emphasis on the interface, i was thinking multiple media would have to manifest such different views
cin [to Kafkaz]: and I think that asynchronous is more confrontational sometimes -- more picky (each word gets picked at)
cin nods, I see
Lennie [to Kafkaz]: My names of AT, TO, and BETWEEN are names I came up with to describe what I called the "Shared Discourse" of the networked computer classroom. Between is when the messaging moves toward dialogue, as we are doing in here. Usually, it happens in synchronous "chats."
cin [to Bradley]: you say that bruffee's work needs updating -- in which area (I wasn't sure what you meant)
nickc says, "but in many ways, this is no different from writing an essay and imaging readers' reactions and what they will be--how often, for example, do we drop in a clever line to in anticipation of "soandso nods""
Kafkaz [to cin]: Yes, because we have the luxury of time, then--and distance, too. And we can insert ourselves more fully into one another's texts
Kafkaz nods to Lennie
cin wonders if instant response isn't the ultimate in ego gratification -- you know people are reading what you write, and you can immediately guage a value in the words you contributed
James nods quickly to cin
Cath arrives from Crump's Corner.
James grins
Lennie says, "I agree with Nick that the imagined reader is the same for computers. What is different is the means for reaching the reader."
[ 4:30 pm ]
Kafkaz laughs
James waves to Cath
Bradley blinks.
Lennie waves to Cath
Bradley is getting pulled away to a seminar...
Cath says, "hi - tried to slip in quietly, since i"m late :-)"
cin has been reading "The Breakfast Table" at slate.com (email exchanges between 2-3 people, commenting on the day's news stories). I'm always struck by how often they refer to what others are saying about their messages -- they read the reader's responses, other's pundits articles, etc.
Kafkaz [to cin]: but the discomfort you mentioned earlier--unease with interruption--seems to argue against the ego fulfillment.
nickc [to Lennie]: and the differences are significant: speed, location, types of response, expectations for writing will do and be like, to name a few
cin says, "in some ways, the breakfast table is an ultimate performance -- it's a "friendly and chatty" sort of delivery, yet it's editorial in nature. "
Kafkaz [to cin]: the movie review is hardly ever about the movie . . .
cin nods to kafkaz, I suppose that ego fulfillment implies a sense of an ego boost. I was thinking about it in terms of "attention"
Lennie says, "The spectator student in this "theater" classroom is very aware of how others will view them. They compare their performance to others and then the performance of others with each other."
Kafkaz nods to cin
James [to cin]: i haven't visited the site, but it sounds interesting! do they engage the responses pretty thoroughly as they engage them?
nickc [to cin]: yes, and BkftT regularly has the featured writers not only mentioning what readers say, but dipping into the Fray themselves, and kibbitzing w/ readers
Kafkaz says, "A performance web"
cin [to James]: they don't so much engage them as they sort of undermine them -- sometimes making fun of them.
nickc [to James]: sometimes, depends on the writers
James says, "cool"
James plans to check out the site
cin says, "if you all are interested, slate.com is the website -- The Breakfast Table is featured there daily."
Kafkaz [to cin]: sounds like the comment/response sections of our journals
nickc [to James]: for example, in Jan. there was a year-end movie discussion w/ several critics, many of whom engaged w/ readers directly
cin nods, it's sort of like comment/response -- but much more lighthearted
nickc [to Kafkaz]: only difference is that because of volume, Fray gets more postings in day than many of our online journals get in a year
cin nods to nickc
James nods to cin and nickc----sounds cool!
Kafkaz grins at nick
cin likes the model they use -- I've been thinking about using it in a classroom situation, giving 2 or 3 students the "podium" for a week...
nickc says, "btw, the Fray's an interesting example of a site where spectator/participant blurs or melds in interesting ways"
Tery [to Lennie]: Do you think students are more aware in this medium than in a regular classroom?
cin says, "in some ways, that would point out the performance aspect of writing that Lennie is using here. And I like it when students can see what it is that I'm talking about, and play around with that."
nickc has disconnected.
Tery [to Lennie]: I'm sorry--I meant aware of how others will view them . . .
John [to Lennie]: How do you think student's awareness of their performance being compared to others effects their work?
Lennie says, "It sounds like it draws the reader into the participant role. Our local TV station has put up a number of kiosks where viewers can "talk back" and become more participatory in a similar way."
cin echoes other's questions, "so, this awareness of being a participant is very important then, right?"
nickc has connected.
Lennie nods
nickc keeps closing his program by mistake
cin grins at nick
Kafkaz [to John]: can't speak for lennie, but I think it alters their self-disclosure choices pretty significantly
John nods at Kafkaz.
Tery says nick must be on a PC, not a Mac
John grins at Tery.
John . o O ( Think Different )
Lennie says, "I think that students when they view the texts of their peers (multiplicity) and begin comparing head toward something like what Bruffee calls "normalization." One of my students said it better when he said "I know better where I stand.""
nickc nods Tery
Kafkaz has to go, all
James waves to Kafkaz
John waves bye to Kafkaz.
nickc waves kafkaz
Kafkaz says, "Thanks!"
Lennie waves bye to Kafkaz
cin waves bye to kafkaz too
James [to Lennie]: does it seem in some sense like empowerment, then? i like the student's description
Tery [to Kafkaz]: waves
cin nods to lennie -- I like that, "I know better where I stand." I think I'd add that it also lets them see their own writing from a different perspective -- through the eyes of others looking at the screen/stage.
[ 4:40 pm ]
Lennie [to James]: What seems like empowerment?
Lennie nods to Cindy
James [to Lennie]: when students have a sense of their peers' work
nickc [to Lennie]: yes, it gives them a sense of what others are doing, and they don't feel so alone and have to wonder about what they're doing? But does seeing that help them adjust--do they change what they're doing in light of seeing the 'performances' of others?
James [to Lennie]: empowered then to make choices about their own----critical choices----is sorta where i was going
cin [to nickc]: and added on to that...does it make the writing "better"? does it make them better writers? or does it make them average/compliant writers?
Kafkaz has disconnected.
James nods to cin
Lennie [to James]: I don't know if empowerment is the right word. Perhaps relief or something like a sense of being oriented and not lost. Often our students have wild notions about what their writing is like and when they see it in relation to others then it helps them be more at ease.
nickc nods cin
James nods to Lennie-----'oriented' is a really good term, i think
Lennie says, "That's the question: does it make them better writers?"
nickc says, "too often we shy away from the phrase 'better writers' and devalue by saying one can't assign fixed value to it, but it's important in what we do and why students come to our courses"
Tery agrees with Cin and Lennie--that is the question
Pokemon arrives from Crump's Corner.
Tery says, "I can imagine students lowering their standards."
James waves to Pokemon
John waves to Pokemon
Pokemon waves to everyone
cin especially wonders about this since (especially in the US) we price individuality a lot. I'm not so sure that we "teach" that, though. I'm not sure we can teach it.
Lennie says, "I have kept back from student writing before and tried to see if just letting them share writing will have a positive affect (as Nick points out--make changes to improve their writing) and I must admit that it doesn't seem to happen. I think some kind of teacher guidance and "intervention" (poor term) is needed."
John says, "Does 'better writers' mean students becoming more critically aware of their own writing?"
nickc says, "though I suspect much depends upon how the writing is framed when we ask them to do--what do we present as the goals, purpose, and reasons for writing? How should it be judged and used?"
Lennie nods to nickc
James nods to cin------one of our country's most cherished cultural narratives, seems like: the individual success story
Kafkaz's friends arrive to cart her off to bed.
cin [to John]: I think that "better learners/thinkers" become more critically aware of their own writing, and that's a *part* of becoming a better writer.
John nods at cin.
nickc [to cin]: we're stuck there---we both want to respect the student's 'author'ity and person and voice, but we also know that to develop that they sometimes need to work in a group setting to group norms and conventions
Cath says, "Yet I also wonder if Tery isn't on to something - do the 'better' writers tend to 'tone it down' so they aren't so conspicuous?"
Lennie [to cin]: I think that this self-awareness and sense of what writing is and takes is very important--even though at the time they aren't able to write "well" the seeds are there for future growth.
James nods to Lennie
cin nods, it's a sticky spot to be -- and it's a big part of what I did when I taught ESL classes. Examine cultural assumptions/values on various types of voice and authority, and work toward that in writing.
nickc [to Cath]: it depends on the medium and the purpose again. Julien Dibble's got a piece called "Writer A La Modem" where he describes how his print writing style and sense of himself as a writer didn't go over too well in online bbs's and email
cin [to Cath]: that's a really important question -- and I think it happens quite often with certain types of people. It certainly happened(s) with many "smart women" in classrooms for years and years...still does, particularly with teenage girls.
Lennie [to Cath]: You may have a point. I think I've seen more often that students try to "tone it up" to keep up with the group.
James nods to cin----definitely
Cath nods, epecially to cin re smart women
[ 4:50 pm ]
cin says, "not just gender differences, either -- I had an African American student once who consciously tried to (her words) blacken her writing. She was feeling isolated from other black students on campus because she didn't talk and write like she felt they wanted her to."
Cath says, "wow"
Tery says, "Ouch! Sounds like she couldn't win in either culture."
cin says, "since that was her choice, and since I understood her need (UWyo is an incredibly white campus, and she really wanted to make some non-white connections), I encouraged her to play with the voice -- and make choices about when and where to use it."
Lennie says, "I suppose one of the things I like to see happen in a computer classroom environment is that the spectator-participant dynamic creates a sense of engagement for the students. They are eager to read what their peers have written; they are wanting to share what they have just written. "
cin says, "but...it doesn't work with a lab report to Biology professor..."
nickc [to Lennie]: there's a hunger for that in any classroom, really
Lennie nods
Pokemon has disconnected.
cin nods, engagement for students is important -- and often negelected
Tery [to cin]: Where and when to use what voice is critical for students to learn, I think.
nickc says, "need to go, bye all"
nickc leaves the theater for a local pub.
Lennie says, "so long Nick"
cin grins, left so fast we couldn't say goodbye
Cath says, "but there is also fear of that engagement"
Katie has disconnected.
cin [to Tery]: I think that Tech Comm teachers/classes really focus on that very well (choosing voices for various purposes). I often feel that FYcomp and other early comp courses focus exclusively on developing some sort of generic "academic" voice. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.
Lennie [to cin]: You are right to point out that a sense of engagement can certainly be there for a student when they have a one-on-one dynamic with the teacher.
cin [to Lennie]: but that gets back once again to your theater metaphor -- writing taking on various characters or parts to play.
Lennie nods
cin says, "soooooo....to throw an ethical element into this discussion...are we teaching our students to be dishonest?"
Tery [to cin]: My students are nontraditional. I definitely teach academic styles, but we also discuss that that's what I'm teaching them, and why.
cin says, "dishonest in that they aren't being themselves, and they aren't allowing their own voice to be strong? "
John scrolling back. I think Cin's got a point on focusing on 'Academic Voice' too early on.
Cath says, "I think it's more a matter of learning when to let various elements of their own 'voices' be hears"
Lennie says, "I don't think we are teaching them to be dishonest. When we ask them to take on the role of a peer evaluator, we really are putting them in a position to implement their learning and maybe take some transformational steps."
cin says, "or...are we giving them the foundation with which to build their own space, to practice their own voice (as in Tery's teaching academic styles to non-trad students, to get them in a position to be listened to)"
Pokemon's friends arrive to cart him off to bed.
Tery nods to Cath
cin grins, I'm a typing fool today -- sorry to spam with so many thoughts/questions
James grins at cin
Tery grins too
Lennie grins as he stretches his fingers
cin is avoiding her dissertation... :>
John says, "Isn't writing a way in which ideas can be tested, explored?"
John says, "And if so, then playing with voice seems natural."
Katie's friends arrive to cart her off to bed.
Cath says, "I also think trying on different 'voices' helps them discover their own"
Lennie says, "But to get our students to have a sense of "voice" is really hard--I've found."
John says, "And playing with voice within a spectator-participant position allows the students to see how those voices impact audiences."
John nods at Lennie.
Tery nods at John
John says, "Sometimes it's just getting them to toss out ideas."
John says, "To play with thinking."
cin nods, if writing is a way to test ideas and voice, then are we discarding notions of speech as an action (or the responsibility of written/spoken words)?
Lennie [to John]: I agree that the peer environment is the perfect place for them to experiment. I don't know how many student I have who have scars from red pen marks on their writing psyche.
[ 5:00 pm ]
Cath updates 'The Thesis Avoidance Blues' for cin
cin says, "in other words, if they're playing/acting/testing, are they responsible for what they say? "
Tery says, "I don't think writing can ever be *just* a way to test ideas and voice, but that's one thing it can do."
RobertR has disconnected.
John [to cin]: We have notions of public/private writing. I think we need at least a third category
cin is, of course, the ultimate arguer that classrooms should be environments for play (I'm tossing out the argument that always gets used against me)
cin nods to john, I like that -- at least a 3rd category
John says, "One in which students can do 'private' writing for public consumption"
John says, "And that's the writing to play with."
Lennie [to cin]: I don't know how far I've had students go with taking on complete other personas. I suppose I have an Elbowian element of trying to be "honest"... truly honest.
cin grins at cath, btw, I expect to hear your rendition of those blues in Ft. Worth
Cath garins
cin says, "cath has an absolutely incredible voice"
Cath says, "that's grins with a southern accent"
James garins at Cath
cin lols
cin didn't mean to sidetrack our discussion...sorry
Lennie turns the volume up
cin notes that MOOs are awfully playful environments
John grins.
Tery says, "asks, So is this that space between private and public?"
[John does a backflip up to the celing.]
Lennie [to cin]: I agree about MOOs being playful. I can see students in this environment playing with different voices a lot.
James grins at John
cin [to Tery]: it's certainly *a* space
John nods at cin.
Cath nots to Lennie
John [to Tery]: I like to think of it as something between writen and oral discourse.
cin says, "but there's a wonderfully imaginative and creative element here -- or in other similar cyber-environments."
John says, "Something like a tertiary orality...maybe."
Lennie [to John]: What would dear Father Ong say about this inbetween space? What would he call it?
John says, "Not sure exactly how to define it."
Tery [to John]: I'm beginning to see a continuum. E-mail is more formal than this, for instance, but less formal than most written environments.
RobertR's friends arrive to cart RobertR off to bed.
Cath says, "there is a feeling of initmacy in MOO that seems to contribute to the private becoming public"
John [to Lennie]: I'm not sure. Unfortuantely, Father Ong's health declined rapidly right as I got to SLU.
John says, "I'd love to discuss it with him, though."
cin says, "Aarseth calls these "cybertexts" a sort of ergodic literature (I'm just starting his book). It's an interesting book -- I'd recommend it."
Lennie [to John]: Isn't "tertiary orality" an Ong term?
John agrees with Cath and Cin.
cin [to Tery]: I think the continuum is a good way of thinking about it -- and some lists are much more formal than others.
John [to Lennie]: Yes, it's definately an Onging term.
cin notes here that she actually met her husband on a MOO (mediamoo) -- gosh, about 7 years ago.
cin says, "so I agree with Cath on the intimacy notion."
Cath nods
John scrolling back to Tery on continums.
cin says, "it's very real, it can be deeply personal...and there's a sense of ultimate fragility in cyberspace."
Tery [to Cath]: I wonder how/if that feeling of intimacy affects student writers.
Lennie says, "I, unfortunately, need to run and retrieve my sons. This has been a lot of fun and very interesting. Thanks so much."
John [to Tery]: Yes, I do think there's a continum, but as Cin says it's all fluid.
cin thanks Lennie for having this session
John says, "Yea Lennie!"
John says, "WooHoo!"
James [to Lennie]: this has been great! thanks!
cin says, "IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY DONE SO, please consider joining Lennie's e-list forum and continuing with this discussion. More info: http://www.furman.edu/~jinman/ cw2k/elists/"
James yays Lennie!
Cath says, "thank you too"
John says, "If you want a copy of the log mailed to you, type <ask Lennie's Recorder for text>"
Tery waves to Lennie
Lennie says, "I probably don't need to remind everyone, but the Elist on this same topic is on going and has Kenneth Bruffee on board. He should make it interesting."
cin says, "and if you're on the list, for goodness sake, POST SOMETHING. :>"
Lennie waves bye to all
James grins at cin
James waves to Lennie
cin waves bye to Lennie
Cath waves to Lennie
John [to Lennie]: Keep in touch!
Lennie says, "Thanks to John and Cindy!"
Lennie has disconnected.