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Is Anyone There? Communication and Online Learning
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MOO session log from Computers and Writing Online 2001
Is Anyone There? Communication and Online Learning
May 8, 2001, noon to 2 pm
Participants: MaryO, ColleenReilly, Tari, SCog, VincentP, ophelia, Brendan, Bradley, GregS, Sherri, and CosmicCat Tari turns the CWOnline 2001 recorder on. SCog [to MaryO]: hi! Tari says, "we can cut ramping-up chatter from the log; i just don't want to forget to turn it on." Tari says, "hi vince" MaryO says, "Welcome all. I guess with four people here it marks the beginning of this session." Tari grins Tari says, "People will probably still come in, but starting is quite good" MaryO says, "As I said before the recorde was on, it looks like online communication is the theme for sessions and papers this year." Tari nods. ColleenReilly says, "As my students say, communicating online is the way many people do it nowadays..." MaryO says, "I know that the faculty I work with are concerned, and sometimes nervous about using these tools. It was the main reason I created the tutorial that is the basis for this session." VincentP thinks ColleenReilly's students have learned well from the great Yogi Berra. . . ColleenReilly smiles ophelia arrives from the common ground. MaryO says, "welcome Ophelia" VincentP waves to Ophelia ophelia says, "hi maryo" ophelia waves to vincentp MaryO says, "Would people introduce themseleves a bit?" Brendan arrives from the common ground. Tari notes that the web site for this session is at http://www.western.tec.wi.us/voice/class/vtutor/collabor.htm if anyone wants to keep it handy MaryO says, "Welcome Brendan" Brendan waves Tari is Tari Fanderclai, CW Online Committee person MaryO says, "OOPS...thanks Tari. " SCog is Sharon Cogdill, St. Cloud State University Brendan is Brendan Riley, University of Florida VincentP is Vince Puma from Flagler College in St. Augustine, FL ColleenReilly is late of Indiana University Kokomo and now at University of North Carolina at Wilmington MaryO says, "And I am Mary O'Sullivan from Western Wisconsin Technical College in La Crosse, WI." ophelia says, "Ophelia is Alex Babione from Southern Illinois University Edwardsville" Bradley arrives from the common ground. VincentP [to ColleenReilly]: I interviewed at Kokomo in 1987, was offered a position, but decided to stay in FL. How was your stay? GregS arrives from the common ground. ColleenReilly [to VincentP]: Short. The people are very nice; adminstration not so much MaryO says, "One of the reasons I created the tutorial on ways to use online communication tools is that many of the faculty I work with are inthe process of easing toward using online resources in their instruction but aren't read to go totally online. What kinds of experiences have youhad?" VincentP [to ColleenReilly]: Yeah, seemed that way to me. . . Bradley nods at MaryO. ColleenReilly agrees [ 11:12 am ] VincentP says, "Resistance." MaryO says, "The other half of me that isn't running VOICe has been teaching online for 4 years at: http://learn.western.tec.wi.us/mfo" Bradley has reconnected. Bradley learns to moo MaryO says, "I am a really basic MOOer, Bradley....still learning." Bradley [to MaryO]: At last night's presentation we talked about transition technologies Tari [to MaryO]: my experience with helping people (and i'm not a teacher; I just work with them) is that you're really on the right path here--teachers need help seeing what can be done before they can think about how to use these things. Bradley [to MaryO]: perhaps that's sort of like what you were saying a minute ago MaryO says, "Bradley, I missed last night. Can you summarize the talk on transition technologies?" Tari says, "Bradley puts himself on the spot!" ophelia agrees with Tari ColleenReilly [to Tari]: I agree. They often can't develop a pedagogy until they understand what the basic options are Bradley says, "well, there wasn't a talk, and I've lost my scrollback so I can't refer specifically to what you just said." Bradley grins VincentP [to Tari]: Have you found that it takes a mindset shift from the instructors to be successful with your help? Bradley says, "er, I mean, there wasn't anything SPECIFICALLY about transitions, something like it came up" MaryO says, "Yes Colleen. In addition, I find they are happiest trying one technology at a time rather than tackling a couple. Many people seem to need a comfort-leve with one technology before being brave enough to try anaother." Sherri arrives from the common ground. MaryO says, "Welcome Sherri." ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: Yes, I've seen that as well. Too much at once is very overwhelming Sherri [to MaryO]: thank you Sherri listens Tari [to VincentP]: a mindset shift, yet. Tari says, "er, yes" Tari says, "and not just in the sense of becoming open to the technology" Tari says, "resistance is just one problem; another is enthusiasm not yet combined with pedagogical goals" VincentP says, "Yes. I often tell them that I don't want to put information into their heads as much as I want to put their heads in a different place. " ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: (and anyone) what is/are the best technology or technologies to start with? Bradley grins at VincentP. ColleenReilly [to VincentP]: Does that scare people? :) GregS says, "That's hard to say... depends so much on what the teacher is trying to do with students... or what seems to be lacking in their course now." Tari says, "different place, yes, that's really important--it's a whole nother environment/culture" MaryO says, "Yes Vincent!" MaryO says, "I also find that students do better in an online environment if they have distinct technologies for different functions of a class. So I use email, email-based discussion lists, conferences, and chats all for different purposes." VincentP [to ColleenReilly]: Actually, it relaxes them, seems to make them feel less accountable for the small stuff. MaryO says, "Colleen, I usually encourage faculty to start with email. Most are at least used to that." GregS works with distance education faculty across campus and tries to gauge the starting points and step sizes depending upon the faculty. But I *always* think it is best to try one or two new things, then assess, rather than try redesigning a class all at once. Yes, e-mail is a good start, since they frequently use it for other purposes already. Sherri [to VincentP]: is this what you're talking about? (a paste is coming here, if I can get it right) --------------------------------- Sherri ---------------------------------- Often, in online environments, wonderful and surprising pedagogical moments come simply from taking students out of an environment in which they are comfortable and putting them in a new environment with new rules and different modes of socializing -------------------------- Sherri stops pasting --------------------------- Sherri [to VincentP]: It's from Whelan's recent Kairos article [ 11:23 am ] VincentP [to Sherri]: Yes, that's close enough. I want to make them aware of different ways of seeing, of different ways of acting & reacting, so the easiest way I think is to change the environment and expectations. Sherri nods at VincentP. Tari [to MaryO]: do you get to follow through with particular faculty? Take them from email this term to email plus chat next term, for example? VincentP says, "always believed that we teach best by setting the appropriate conditions, then just watching & making course corrections." MaryO says, "Yes Vincent and Sherri. This is why I really try to get faculty to practice learning online themselves before they get tofar in to trying to teach online." Sherri [to MaryO]: yes VincentP [to MaryO]: makes a lot of sense. . . Tari [to MaryO]: oh man, that practice thing...do they resist that? Tari proceeds to ask more questions than one human can answer in the allotted time, even without having to type MaryO says, "I have been working with faculty at my college for 4 years now and I have been able to follow many from simply using email and online sources with their students, to helping them design online classes. It's great fun!" GregS likes Mary's idea of them learning online before teaching online. GregS brb Bradley grins at Tari. ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: that sounds awesome MaryO says, "Of course the faculty resis learning online. If you have all had any experience teaching colleagues, you probably will agree with me that we all make the worst students ;-(" VincentP [to MaryO]: Do you find that they become surprised that some learning can actually occur while that fun is going on? Sherri thinks of a recent conference presentation during which a member of the audience was rolling her eyes at another member, about the presentation! and getting hostile--yes, we do make poor students sometimes! MaryO says, "Yes Vincent...the added benefit is that sometimes when we have taught for a long time, we can forget learning IS suposed to be fun." VincentP agrees VincentP says, "although, yes, there are some learning experiences that need to be unsettling, so the "fun" isn't apparent for quite a while, I'd think. " Tari [to MaryO]: heh, faculty are not the best students, it's true--do you do things like workshops and stuff online for them, or do you try to get them to practice on their own time, or what? Sherri [to VincentP]: yes, it can be very unsettling to find yourself in a completely different environment, like you were saying VincentP nods Bradley thinks again about transitions -- getting from the fun point to things which are more difficult GregS is shocked, but not surprised at the eye rolling, nor at the conclusion that faculty are not always the best learners. Sherri . o O ( fun AND difficult? ) GregS says, "any ideas on how to get them to be better students?" Tari [to MaryO]: i'm off on this line of questioning because i had a hard time getting people who want to teach on Connections to do some practicing until we instituted a workshop series for them, and now i think others are seeing that the workshop wasn't THAT much work and the people who went through it are having a much easier time Bradley wants to paste a bit from the presentation on the web? Tari says, "and with that little success in motion, i'm looking for more techniques" MaryO says, "Well, Tari, I have tried a lot of different approaches from one-on-one sessions and online workshops. Sometimes I have great attendance and success; sometimes I don't have great success." Tari nods. --------------------------------- Bradley --------------------------------- So, VOICe is designed to provide faculty with an opportunity to learn online just as their students might, as well as to offer specific help with creating their own instructional sites. -------------------------- Bradley stops pasting -------------------------- Sherri [to Tari]: I've really enjoyed the "practicing" I've been able to do less formally at the Tuesday Cafes, too VincentP [to MaryO]: Have you tried informal listservs? Tari says, "yeah, the attendance thing...the workshops and/or the workshop homework are definitely the first things to get blown off when the teachers get busy with stuff that's more immediately rewarding (or punishing)" MaryO says, "What I have found to be most successful is a mentoring program that was just instituted last year. Experienced faculty are paid a very modest stipend to help less experienced faculty. We have now reached a critical mass of people helping each other and I am seeing lots of activity and interest in workshops." Tari says, "oooooh, money" Tari says, "that's so good" Sherri [to Tari]: There's something about the cafes that makes me want to attend--the community aspect? the playing that goes on? [ 11:33 am ] GregS came in late... is there a URL to go with all this? Tari [to Sherri]: i knew it wasn't the money Sherri [to Tari]: like going to Cheers? Sherri [to Tari]: :) MaryO says, "Yes Bradley. I really want to do more than encourage faculty to practice online skills. I even refuse to hand out paper at face-to-face workshops. Insead we meet in computer-supported classrooms and all the information they use is in a VOICe tutorial." Tari [to MaryO]: but instituting a mentor system with rewards, that's so cool that you could do that Bradley wonders if this student/teacher technique helps with getting faculty more interested Tari | Tari notes that the web site for this session is at http://www.western.tec.wi.us/voice/class/vtutor/collabor.htm if anyone wants to keep it handy Sherri envies MaryO that situation Tari [to GregS]: there you go ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: How do they respond to the lack of paper. I've gotten real resistance to that MaryO says, "Well, the money isn't much, but faculty at least appreciate the gesture." GregS says, "Thanks!" Tari says, "exactly" Tari says, "even if it's a little tiny stipend, it's like "this is important; thank you for doing it"" Tari says, "instead of "hey, do yet more community service--i see you have an hour free on saturday morning"" VincentP says, "At Flagler, our faculty can use development funds for training--a mixed blessing, really." MaryO says, "Also, the mentees write a proposal and receive a small grant...again just as an incentive. I'll try to paste it in..." Tari [to VincentP]: how so? Tari knows nothing of budgeting GregS nods tari and mary. My diss research showed they wanted more time for helping (which cannot be given in most cases), but the $ and simple recognition seemed to be equal. I was pleasantly surprised to see this lack of emphasis on cash. Bradley says, "release time" GregS [to Bradley]: what's that???? Tari says, "t/p points" VincentP [to Tari]: Well, the fact that our administration is willing to loosen the purse strings to allow us to do what they want us to do is hopeful; but the fact that they do also places undue pressure on the faculty to participate. Z'at make sense? MaryO says, "Actually, most faculty would rather have the release time, but that costs the college more than the stipend. The small stipend come from a state-funded grtant." Tari [to VincentP]: yeah, it does Bradley [to MaryO]: That's exactly whhat I was wondering... but as has been said, any funding is better than nothing -- recognition that the learning is important VincentP phews! MaryO says, "Technology Innovation" Sherri smiles at VincentP. MaryO says, "oops...obviously that didn't work." Sherri [to MaryO]: you might need to add the paste feature to your character? Tari [to VincentP]: so you while you'd like to talk people into trying it if they seem open but hesitant, you're iffy about a program that coerces people who really aren't ready Bradley grins VincentP [to Tari]: Yes, exactly. Would be nice to come to it on our own terms. Tari nods. MaryO says, "Let's try this instead. If you want to see the cfp, you can got to http://www.western.tec.wi.us/voice CHoose announcements. Choose Call for Proposals. You will then get an annoying dialogue box that the webmaaster can't get rid of. Just click cancel and the cfp will appear as rtf." VincentP says, ". . .and, of course, still be paid for it. :)" GregS says, "we've found that offering money does often get people to *act* interested in trying new DE techniques, but they often don't carry the projects through to completion, probably because, as you mentioned, they are sometimes lured by the money rather than driven by internal motivations. A real dillema." Tari says, "when my former school first got a computer lab, those of us who were clamoring to teach in there often got shoved aside in favor of people who didn't want to at all but who were sent in because "you're about to go on the job market and you should have this on your vita"" Sherri has disconnected. Tari says, "there were multiple disasters." Sherri has connected. Sherri . o O ( whew ) MaryO says, "Do any of your colleges have a set of steps that faculty must follow to put a course online? " Sherri tried to access the Wrong Thing, obviously VincentP [to Sherri]: Bye! Hello! [ 11:43 am ] Sherri smiles at VincentP. GregS says, "Ours is just finishing up a DE strategic plan that includes those steps." Tari [to GregS]: can you describe that a little? Bradley fights his rtf viewer Tari wonders what the steps would be MaryO says, "So, Greg, are the steps recommended or is there someone who might look at a website and tell the faculty person it was not yet ready for prime-time on the college server?" ColleenReilly says, "IUK is developing a series of workshops for faculty to help them to develop online courses. They will be held over the summer and participants receive $" GregS says, "Oh, there is soooo much bureaucracy in the process..., but it is dealing with support for DE (stipends, technical assistance, etc.) more with a proposal model now. We feel that having them go through a more formal proposal process will encourage better accountability. We will see the results next year." VincentP [to ColleenReilly]: can you say more? We're about to do the same kind of thing, and I'm interested in the dynamics. Sherri tries to remember why she was going to the Call for Proposals.... (got there now) Tari [to GregS]: so you don't hold with the "lack of preparation is a virtue" school of online education Tari eyes herself warily. Bradley laughs GregS [to MaryO]: That is a big struggle here. I am an instructional designer, and while a few courses were *far* from ready to go, our area has no authority to hold them up. We are trying to find ways of getting the departments to be more accountable for the quality of their DE offerings, since nobody wants a service unit like mine making academic/curricular decisions. GregS [to ColleenReilly]: IUK as in IU-Kokomo? MaryO says, "I put together a checklist of what should be on a website with links to articles discussing the required components and links to examples of websites having the particular components, but we have nothing in place that actually requires faculty to include them. The checklist is at: http://www.western.tec.wi.us/voice/class/vtutor/wbchklst.htm" ColleenReilly [to VincentP]: Unfortunately I don't have many specifics. We've only had one meeting so far and it was a sort of orientation. There was a lot of discussion about IUK owning everything we produced. The next meetings are to follow ColleenReilly [to GregS]: Yes VincentP [to ColleenReilly]: Thanks--I think I know the direction. GregS [to Tari]: I am more of the school of 'lack of preparation means I have a ton of work to do for you at the last minute' Tari grins at GregS. VincentP [to MaryO]: Does ColleenReilly's description of what's happening at IUK sound typical to you? MaryO says, "Ah yes ... the intellectual property issue. We are still trying to come to terms with the defintion of "course." It seesm that in a f2f classroom it is obvious that what an instructor uses for instruction belongs to that instructor and is her course. When it gets translated to the web this doesn't seem to be so obvious." ColleenReilly says, "Is that because the web is supposed to represent profit or commercial gain?" ColleenReilly says, "What about intellectual property issues with tapes of classes or the like? " MaryO says, "I suppose the profit issue appears. But as I told my colleges Board, I am less concerned about someone making money from my courses and more concerned abaout having control over them." GregS wonders if IUK's DE is looking more toward extended audiences, or if it is targeting some of its traditional outreach populations like Chrylser and Delco. ColleenReilly says, "Exactly" ColleenReilly [to GregS]: I think the latter. They want to attract more nontraditional students from the area [ 11:53 am ] ColleenReilly [to GregS]: As an illustration, they wanted me to do a course because I teach professional and technical writing GregS says, "Interesting... over the past decade IUK seems to be trying to get more traditional students, so maybe a shift in attention to DE is a way of getting back to the nontrads that it has served for so well for so long. I think audience/purpose issues are at the heart of any DE discussion for a campus. Oh, fwiw, my wife is an IUK grad and we know several faculty here." GregS says, "Crud, my boss just came in to recruit me for a quick job. Hope to get back in a few minutes." Tari is still mulling over the profit thing. Bradley nods at Tari. Tari says, "only not coherently enough to ask what i need to know." VincentP [to MaryO]: . . .help me be clear a bit here. We're not talking specifically, only, DE here, are we? Bradley says, "I was wondering about profit vs control" MaryO says, "I really think the only ones who will make a profit from online learning, are the commercial endeavors. " Tari says, "i want to say, can't you make a profit off it and then let others use it anyhow" Tari says, "which is oversimplified" MaryO says, "Well Tari. MIT certainly seems to not be worried about profit." Tari says, "yeah" Bradley [to MaryO]: But of course not every school has an endowment with that many zeros VincentP thinks Tari is quite enamoured with the trickle-down theory. . . ;) Tari says, "but then, MIT has plenty of ways to make money" Tari [to VincentP]: i might be; what is it in this context? Tari knows nothing of economics except if she has more money she can buy more books. MaryO says, "What worries me is that my dean might assign somone to teach an online section of a course and tell them to use my website to do it. I would lose control over how my materials were used...well actually I wouldn't. I would move everything from the college server first ;-)" Tari says, "which is becoming a storage issue" Tari says, "but anyhow." ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: That would be my concern as well Tari says, "hm" Tari says, "could someone help me see the importance of having control over how someone else uses your materials?" MaryO says, "In fact, I have seriously been considering getting my own domain name and putting all my classes on resnted server sapce. On the other hand...maybe I am just paranaoid." Tari isn't going to go all pop-culture open-source here Tari actually doesn't quite get it. VincentP [to Tari]: Making a profit and allowing others to use the product "trickling down" your wealth (has nothing to do with our discussion. . . Tari [to VincentP]: ah Tari says, "i guess what i'm thinking about is...I put tutorials and stuff on my website all the time" Tari says, "and i don't really know what people are going to do with those" MaryO says, "I am perfectly willing to share materials with my colleagues. I do it all the time. If fact, I have allowed other instructors to simply link to some of my materials. But I reamin in charge of how the website looks, whats one it and so on." Bradley [to MaryO]: That's a real concern for some folks Tari says, "i know sometimes they make adaptations of them that don't work too well, for example" Tari says, "but i don't think of that as a loss of control" ColleenReilly [to Tari]: Yes, I agree. I also make handouts and tutorials that everyone uses. But a whole course would be different. Tari [to MaryO]: OH, you mean that they'd make you do your website in a particular way in order to be universally useful instead of tailored by you to you? CosmicCat arrives from the common ground. ColleenReilly says, "You would want to know that people were using the pedagogy and background behind the course, not just the shell of materials" MaryO says, "As a teacher, my puspose in lfe is to help people learn. It's one reason I leave my classes open so other can look at them and get ideas. " [ 12:03 pm ] MaryO says, "YES! Colleen and Tari. What you said!" Tari says, "aha" Tari says, "and is it different if you control your website how you want it, and people take things from there and modify it for their uses?" Tari says, "that kind of use of your materials is okay, or no?" VincentP wonders what the "it" is to which Tari refers. . . MaryO says, "Well, actually, if they take something and modify it, that's okay...but then I don't want my name on it." ColleenReilly says, "True" Tari says, "i know; I should have said "it" not "them" by which I meant "the materials"" Sherri [to MaryO]: and you're saying that they would be able to change something that still has your name on it, right? Tari [to VincentP]: i meant to say, "is it different if you control your website how you want it, and people take things from there and modify those thing for their uses?" VincentP [to Tari]: Thanks. Tari says, "Oh, I agree--I tell people, "If you use this stuff as is, please credit me; if you change it, please make clear that you got something from me and modified it--don't make it look like it's all mine"" VincentP [to Tari]: I understand you now, and I think you've asked a pertinent & telling question Tari says, "but i get it better now; i was wondering about how anyone could put stuff online and then want to control how it was used" MaryO says, "In my department, we all share ideas. I rememebr one activity that I designed that a colleague then umodified and used. Then another did so...after about 4 revisions, I saw it again and adopted the new version adding a bit. That's fine. What I am against is what happened to a colleague in CIS. He put up a detailed website and then found one of his colleagues was simply using the whole website and all the assignemtns etc. for his own class!" Sherri imagines her own faculty webpages with someone else's picture on them.... ;) Tari says, "but you're talking about not wanting people to control what you put there to suit your course--you don't want to get stuck developing the website equivalent of the department standard syllabus" Tari says, "i think" Bradley wonders what advice Mary gives to faculty learners about this issue? Tari says, "stop me when i start putting words in your mouths" VincentP wonders what Bradley wonders. . . ColleenReilly wonders it too MaryO says, "Oh, good question Bradley. I have been suggesting that they might want to consider password protection for parts of their courses." Bradley says, "Do you do anything to counteract the sort of problem Sherri mentioned?" MaryO says, "I now have the actual directions for assignments in a password protected area. All the resoruces, the structure of the classes, and the list of the assignments is all freely available...just the actual directions are behind the password." VincentP [to MaryO]: Who has access to the password? MaryO says, "I change the password every semester and send it to the students enrolled in my courses, Vincent." VincentP says, "So you don't need to register it or post it to IT or anything similar?" MaryO says, "Bradley, I think it finally just comes down to respect among colleagues. The CIS instructor just didn't get it. But this is not common." VincentP would like to share MaryO's faith in humankind. . . [ 12:14 pm ] MaryO says, "Oh, I see what you're asking Vincent. Yes, I have to get the webmaster to change the password. I wish I could do it myself, but he is farily good about making the change in a timely fashion." MaryO says, "Well, on the good days, Vincent." ophelia says, "this is both an inspiring and yet somewhat disheartening conversation. It is great when you can enjoy such collaboration." VincentP thanks the heavens that there are more good days than bad ones. :) Bradley has to attend to an appointment -- thanks to all for the good conversation! Sherri [to Bradley]: bye Bradley will idle to pick up the log. MaryO says, "So maybe it's time for the presenter to present a topic ;-) If you have read the paper and looked through the tutorial, do you have anything to add to my list of uses of communication technology? I would, of course, give you credit if I added it ;-)" Bradley waves. VincentP waves to Bradley Sherri smiles at MaryO. Bradley idles: appointments CosmicCat waves to Bradley VincentP [to MaryO]: Ophelia makes a good point. How much information do you include about collaboration? MaryO says, "Vincent...do you mean in the workshops I do or specifically on the tutorial?" VincentP says, "Sorry. Both, I guess." Sherri needs to duck out now. Thanks, all, for an interesting conversation. Sherri goes south. VincentP says, "(I didn't see much in the tutorial, so I was wondering, especially in this context, how much you address the issue." MaryO says, "Well, because it is really a lot of work to put a website together, since at my college we have really no technical support, we certainly stress collaboration in development. I also use a lot of collaborative activities in my own instruction. But now that you mention this, I'll have to go back and re-look at the tutorial." MaryO says, "Are we all talked out? If so, it's lunch time in the midwest...." Tari grins. Tari [to MaryO]: thanks so much! CosmicCat says, "I have a question from the technologist point of view. So far we've been adapting teaching to the tools available - what tools would you like if you could design your own? What limitations of the existing tools would you like to get rid of and what would you want instead to help you in what you do?" CosmicCat says, "Oop, apologies! Go to lunch!" MaryO says, "Oh man CosmicCat. What a question. Lunch can wait. Let me think for a minute." CosmicCat Yes, thank you! Apologies for missing the first part though (got lost in the timezones somewhere...) ophelia [to MaryO]: I'll have to read the transcript again before I can think of offering anything. Had to leave for a while, but find this whole project exciting. Brendan waves Tari waves to Brendan. Brendan says, "Thanks. Lots to mull over" MaryO says, "Well I would like a truly 3-D Moo. A real virtual reality space....if bandwidth waasn't a problem." Brendan goes south. [ 12:24 pm ] Tari [to MaryO]: have a look through the literature on computer-supported cooperative work Tari [to MaryO]: there are a lot of 3-D and sort-of-3D environments either available, or at least out there in prototype form CosmicCat says, "Ooh, we can sort of have that with VRML (except it's rather flaky at the moment and would need a lot of work to set up and maintain - but not impossible!)" Tari says, "not MOOs, but then MOO doesn't really lend itself to the 3D notion" MaryO says, "Tari...why don't MOOS lesnd themselves to 3-D" CosmicCat says, "There were the Moos that had graphical Avatars that briefly made a =n appearance a few years ago (I think one of the main telephone companies here is trying to resurrect the idea)" Tari says, "well, they're built to be very efficient text environments" Tari says, "once you've got 3-D, you've got something else" Tari says, "and trying to turn a moo into something else is pretty limiting" Tari says, "i've seen a lot of efforts to build things on top of a moo server" Tari says, "but it just makes for a very limiting starting place" MaryO says, "Limiting????" Tari thinks MITRE's CVW ended up being the best possible compromise MaryO says, "Yes. I visited CVW" Tari [to MaryO]: yes; you've got a moo server and database designed to work in particular ways VincentP says, "Is a form of "multiple" teleconferencing a viable direction to move toward first? " CosmicCat remembers some chat room with a 3D isometric view where people could walk around rooms to talk to people in Tari says, "once you start kludging things onto those, you end up being hampered by the original design" Tari [to MaryO]: MOO itself as a MOO has endless possibilites; I don't mean that CosmicCat says, "It seemed to be fast enough to hold a conversation (although whether that would still hold true with a lot of people is another thing)" MaryO says, "I have always meant to learn moe of the nuts and bolts of MOOs , but have so far onlyexperienced them as a user." Tari says, "i mean that it's just got no good places to hook in 3D stuff, for example" VincentP wonders if that rumbling in the distance is MaryO's stomach? SCog [to MaryO]: maybe you'd be interested in this? SCog doesn't want to impose, but... CosmicCat says, "I do agree that these 3D chat room/Moo-ey things looked like more of a gimmick than a genuinely useful communication device" SCog | http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/~scogdill/mooshop/ MaryO says, "Thanks Sharon. I'll chek it out." GregS has to get back to work now. This has been *very* interesting to me, and I look forward to reviewing the log and Mary's website more. And I'd be interested in talking to you at the C&W conference, Mary, if you are attending. This topic touches on my dissertation (recently completed) and my daily work with faculty development, so I'd love the chance to talk more when I am not being distracted by work (those pesky bosses!). Thanks again! SCog [to MaryO]: the mooshops are over for this cwonline conference, or will be this saturday SCog [to MaryO]: but there will be more Tari [to CosmicCat]: yeah, i think people started building many of them with some idea like "wouldn't 3D be kewl???" rather than "if we had a 3D environment, we could accomplish <list of goals>" MaryO says, "Sadly, I can't attend the f2f C&W this year." Tari [to MaryO]: i was about to ask you Tari waves to GregS. SCog [to MaryO]: oooh, sorry! Tari says, "well shoot" MaryO says, "But there's next year and email ;-)" SCog nods to MaryO. CosmicCat [to Tari]: I can see some people responding to a graphical environment better than text, but following a conversation when sentences appear all over the screen rather than in sequential order is not the best way to stay sane Tari [to MaryO]: BUT you should keep in touch with SCog and me; we're trying to do for MOO a little what you're trying to do for your faculty. MaryO says, "I will Tari and Sharon. " Tari [to CosmicCat]: oh, yeah, i've seen some of those [ 12:34 pm ] Tari [to CosmicCat]: for those to work, full-duplex audio has to become fast, cheap, and easy. SCog [to CosmicCat]: and if you really want to do things with graphical environment rather than text, is moo really what you want? SCog [to CosmicCat]: to me, it's about what the goals are CosmicCat [to Tari]: Something that is certainly not looking too viable on a wide scale here in the UK... we've only just gotten around to flat rate billing on the telephone line! Tari says, "you can't chat in a 3D space with text thought-bubbles" Tari grins at CosmicCat. VincentP [to MaryO]: I too must be moving along. But i want to thank you for an interesting presentation that went beyond what I'd hoped. I'll keep my eyes open for new developments. Keep up the good work! MaryO says, "Thanks Vincent. See ya." GregS waves all and splits GregS has disconnected. VincentP says, "Bye, everyone." SCog waves to VincentP. VincentP has disconnected. ColleenReilly says, "Thanks Mary! Your site will provide me with some good resources to check out!" CosmicCat [to SCog]: I look at the 3D Moo-spaces like being in a crowded party - too much noise, things happening everywhere and you don't get to scroll back to hear what someoone across the room was saying Tari says, "exactly; 3D is for something that MOO is not for." Tari states her opinions as fact. Tari says, "but then, you're used to that" ColleenReilly [to MaryO]: I'm think I'm going to be involved in training people in my new job ColleenReilly [to Tari]: Presentation is a lot! :) Tari grins. MaryO says, "I think training is going to become part of nearly everyone's job." ophelia says, "training faculty is critical" MaryO says, "I have always thought your opinions on MOOs were fact, Tari ;-)" Tari says, "woo" Tari says, "i've achieved authority!" CosmicCat says, "Perhaps salesmanship as well as traiing - training people who haven't been convinced they want to learn can be an uphill struggle." Tari [to MaryO]: there's so much here--we could probably go on all day, but we should let you get lunch ColleenReilly [to CosmicCat]: No doubt! Tari [to MaryO]: I'm making a note to myself to invite you to do a session at the Tuesday Cafe sometime soon MaryO says, "Okay. Looks like the conversation really did run down and I can get lunch. Thanks to all for attending. I learned a bunch!" ColleenReilly says, "Nice to talk with you all!" MaryO says, "Okay Tari. Be happy to." ophelia thanks maryo Tari [to MaryO]: thanks for a great discussion! ColleenReilly says, "Hope it's sunny where you are!" ColleenReilly [to Tari]: Yes, sounds good. Tari applauds and gets ready to turn off the recorder. ColleenReilly says, "Bye!" MaryO says, "Actually, it is absolutely gorgeous today. Glad I have windows on 3 sides of my study." This transcript is a document with many authors. Please do not cite any part of it without acquiring appropriate permission from each author you wish to quote or paraphrase. Additionally, please notify the conference coordinators at onliners@nwe.ufl.edu of any permission requests you are making. |
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Computers and Writing Online 2001 was the companion conference to Computers and Writing 2001, which was held May 17-20, 2001, at Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana. |